Post by deering24Post by Alric KnebelYeah. That's what we used to do to pretty, light-skinned girls in my
neighborhood: beat them up.
Total bullshit.
Just because you've never seen that happen doesn't mean it doesn't,
Alric. (Your world is not _the_ world, guy. Careful--you're thinking
like a right-wing conservative--g!) Being light-skinned can draw nasty
racist attention as bad as being too black, and being pretty doesn't get
you a pass from that--in fact, it can make matters worse. There's still
a fair amount of "light-skinned automatically pretty; dark skin not"
among older African-Americans, and that stuff still causes a lot of pain
and resentment. My mother is lighter than Berry, and has straight hair,
and she had to learn how to fight as a girl because of black schoolmates
who would pick on her--and white ones who hated the fact she looked
"almost white." One of my college friends is very dark, and when she
started dating, some guys would make it plain she wasn't nearly as
pretty as more white-looking black girls. She resents those girls (and
those guys) to this day, and automatically thinks girls who look like
that are fundamentally shallow and get an instant pass in life.
Pretty is pretty, whatever it is. You can't change people's perception
of what pretty is, and prettiness is a thing, period. And something
about your whole thing -- guys making it plain your friend wasn't as
pretty as more white-looking black girls -- sounds to me like she just
dated some pretty stupid people. She needed to be more selective. I
thin that little story is exaggerated anyway, because you're more
interested in proving your point than anything else.
Post by deering24Post by Alric KnebelWhatever the reason, it's not racism. Take another angle: There aren't
that many roles for OLDER women. Could it be the target audience the
studio is looking to reach isn't interested in roles for older women;
and taking it further, by the statistics, the same audience isn't
interested in stories chiefly about women, PERIOD.
But movie success after movie success has proved the studios' target aim
is flawed, anyway. The movies that make the big bucks are the ones that
appeal to _everyone_ across the board. The teen/young guy audience will
give you a strong opening weekend, but they are no longer the guarantee
repeat-audience they used to be. And just because a studio swears up and
down that a certain demographic is the only profitable one worth aiming
movies at doesn't make it automatically so. Studio heads are like any
other business executives--they abide by certain demographic rules (that
they usually make) and dismiss anything that upsets those preconceptions
as a "non-recurring phenomena" (as William Goldman called it.) And it's
basically easier for them to cater to a predictable demo that it is to
try aiming at different or larger audiences. They _know_ there will be a
market for stuff aimed at young white guys, or older and young white
guys, and that that market will always come through--and they continue
to cater to it primarily. They don't open up that mindset until they are
forced to--or until someone comes along and proves there's an audience
they are missing. And this has been the case throughout Hollywood
history--BONNIE AND CLYDE, PULP FICTION, SHE'S GOTTA HAVE IT, THE
PASSION OF THE CHRIST, all these movies showed there was a large group
that studios were dismissing or weren't getting.
Well, we agree, then. My point was, the demographics the studios are
aiming for don't include older women, or women in general.
Post by deering24Post by Alric KnebelIf the lack of good roles for black women was due to RACISM, as you suggest, that same
racism would apply to Denzel Washington, Wesley Snipes, Chris Rock,
Samuel Jackson, Chris Rock, Laurence Fishburn, and so on. They're top
draws, all of the people I just mentioned, and they make big bucks.
There simply aren't that many good roles for WOMEN, period, because
that's not where the market is. Look right now at the marquee, and see
what movies involve even WHITE women. It's all teen-age romance nonsense.
...which proves you've got ageism and racism driving things here, no?
No. The market is driving it, and youth have more disposable income.
And I don't know how RACISM even got into it, since the gist of the
paragraph was that black male stars are HUGE draws, with Wesley Snipes
and Laurence Fishburn starring in some of the most phenomenally
successful franchises in recent history. If you can hold your own in a
film and fill seats, Hollywood doesn't care what your race is.
Oh, and one more thing. Let's not forget that Jamie Foxx won an Academy
Award for his astounding performance in "Ray."
Post by deering24And the number of black male actors who get to carry films is a _very_
recent development. If you look at Hollywood history, the town went from
having no blacks in movies/whites in black face to blacks in
minor/supporting roles to having _one_ major black actor (Sidney
Poitier) to having more than one. It took a century for the studios to
get to that point, and it sure wasn't some random
weirdness-from-another-planet-that-just-happened that made that progress
so slow--it was racism. And just because you have more black actors out
there doesn't mean that problem has automatically gone away--it's just
gone underground or manifests itself more subtly in what projects get
greenlighted and what movies get promoted.
Again, for ANYONE to carry the lead in a film is a very rare thing. But
it's been good for blacks for the last twenty years, which coves ALL of
Halle Berry's career. The thing, we're AT THAT POINT, so that's my
point. The projects that get greenlighted are the projects that'll make
the studios feel will make lots of money. You need to look at a
marquee, to see how many movies have black stars in them these days,
often holding the lead role. I never argued that racism never existed.
I'm saying that on the day Halle made her silly pitch, it was not an
issue, and had never been an issue for her. She had it going on on so
many levels. Her career was kick-started at 17. Hey, if you can
complain about that, NOTHING will be good enough.
I'm going to tell you something that's not addressed, and it's obvious
from these threads: BLACK racism. Blacks have a basic misunderstanding
of how whites live, as if every door is open all the time. It's not.
It's tough. It's tough not being a beauty contest winner. When blacks
experience this sort of hardship, they think that somehow RACISM is the
cause. No, it's not. It's just LIFE. And these black comics show
actual disdain for whites in their stand-up routines, and it's totally
acceptable in the black community.
Post by deering24Post by Alric KnebelAnd one more thing. Halle might be beautiful, but she can NOT carry a
film by herself. She's not that charismatic. I mean, there are some
actors and actresses I trust just by the selection of their roles, and
their presence in any movie will make me want to see it. When it comes
to women, Jodie Foster comes to mind. Halle Berry does not. "Monster's
Ball" was a good MOVIE, but no real thanks to her. It was just a damned
good story.
Ever see the HBO movie INTRODUCING DOROTHY DANDRIDGE? That was Berry's
breakthrough role. She pulled off one of the toughest acting jobs
around--playing a real-life movie star. You have to capture what the
person was about _and_ have enough starpower of your own to make that
person believeable as a star. For those kinds of roles, you _have_ to be
talented on at least a couple of levels, else audiences won't buy you as
that person or as a celebrity. Those roles can make an actor a star in
their own right, but they can also sink careers. And the list of actors
who have failed badly trying is a long one. James Brolin and Jill
Clayburgh as Clark Gable and Carole Lombard (still one of the most
egregious examples--g!), Kate Beckesale as Ava Gardner, Lynda Carter as
Rita Hayworth, Carol Lynley and Carroll Baker as Jean Harlow, etc., etc.
Berry not only carried that movie, she was terrific in the part, and
she's been (rightly) rewarded for doing that so well.
I saw that movie, and I really didn't think the movie was that good.
And she was as good as the movie, and she did carry it, but that wasn't
a theatrical release. She selected it as a vehicle for herself, but I
didn't really think she had the magnitude of the star she portrayed. It
felt gimmicky to me. I think she won a Golden Globe for it and I was
very glad for her, because I wanted to see more of her. And I loved
"Monster's Ball," and bought it on DVD.
What's going to tell how much talent she really has is, what she does
from here on. So far, not so good.
Post by deering24Post by Alric KnebelOh, bullshit. You're suggesting I'm a racist. I know racism exists,
you asshole. But Halle Berry isn't a victim of it, and all she knows
about it is what she saw on PBS. Since she was YOUNG, she's been flying
pretty high, above all that. And this is not the 50s at all. Sammy
Davis, Jr. in those days WAS an exception. Today, Halle Berry isn't an
exception; she's one of MANY. Male black stars are some of the
best-paid in the industry.<
Um, _male_ black stars, guy. But do you see any black women
_consistently_ headlining feature films--or any up there in the "A" list
circle with Denzel?
I think we covered that. It's not about BLACK women. It's about WOMEN.
Action is what sells these days. Action and comedy. Those genres
pretty much preclude women in the lead roles.
Post by deering24Again, when the exception to the rule becomes the
norm, then racism is no longer a problem. But when you still have a
whole subset of people not getting the same opportunties, something is
up.
There's an enormous list of people getting those opportunities. And
you have to remember, that's already a minority, even in whites.
Post by deering24Post by Alric KnebelBlack people are well represented in the
film industry, where back in the 50s, movies featuring blacks as the
lead was rare indeed. Your argument is just ridiculous. When black
stars are deserving of awards, they get them. They're not overlooked
because they're black.
It's only been very recently that black male actors have gotten access
to a consistent run of strong roles that enable them ongoing shots at
the Oscar, btw...
Yes, the last twenty years. The point is, the comment didn't belong in
Halle's pitch. The fact that she won, a peak in a career that started
when she was 17, proves my point.
Post by deering24Post by Alric KnebelShe's not telling the truth, especially when it comes to her own life.
She won a beauty contest as seventeen. That alone shows what sort of
life she was living: well-organized, good schooling, privileged
education.
That doesn't prove a frickin' thing. Winning a beauty contest doesn't
mean your parents have money or you are from a priviledge background. It
means you've won a beauty contest, period. And, _again_, just because
you succeed at one level doesn't automatically sweep away others'
preconceptions about what you can do.
But it DID in her case. She went from winning her FIRST beauty contest
as 17, then another contest at 19, then she went into modeling, then
acting, and even had a TV series in the 1989, at the age of 23. And
winning a beauty contest does indeed mean those other positive things in
the environment. The contests are expensive to enter, and it takes a
lot of coaching, training, and so on. I didn't mean her parents were
RICH, but they had assets they could apply to their daughter's career.
One more thing about the racism: She was the product of an interracial
couple, showing right there that racism was something she was aware of
that could impact someone's life, but it was not part of her own.
Post by deering24Post by Alric KnebelYes, yes. A long time ago, black actors were treated horribly. As were
Asians and anybody else who wasn't rice-white. That was YEARS ago. I
know all that stuff. We're talking about what the wealthy, beautiful,
privileged Halle Berry said just two or three years ago at the Oscars.
I suggest you take a real look at what sells tickets these days and
you'll get YOURSELF schooled.
Man, what is your problem? Why does Berry pointing out how long it has
been since a black woman had a shot at an Oscar make her so wrong and
evil?
I don't have a problem. I'm pointing out the facts. If there's a race
problem, Berry has it, not the Academy. She won. Say something funny
and humbly and accept it with a show of class and grace, like everyone
else. Don't turn it into something it wasn't.
Post by deering24Do you think her wealth and beauty keeps her from acknowledging
past inequities--or being glad she is a part of correcting those? _That_
is what she was pointing out, not that she's so wonderful. She was
giving just due to those actors who made her success possible, and why
that burns you so much beats me. If she had acted as if she had gotten
the Oscar all on her own, _then_ that would have been ungracious and
ignorant, but she didn't. So, again, what's your _real_ beef with here?
Jesus Christ. I don't have a beef with her, and I was one of her fans
up until that moment. Mostly because I have a beef with BLACK racism,
with playing a race card, and in her case it's laughable. Remember,
it's only a MINORITY of all the actors in Hollywood who even get
nominated, much less ever win.
Post by deering24Post by Alric KnebelAnd looking at your argument, I want to know for the sake of learning
about attitudes: Are you yourself black? Your argument sounded
defensive.
Because I brought some facts and personal experience into the debate?
Funny, it's generally SOP for people to bring such things to an
arguement to make their case. :) Are you saying that because I'm black
I'm automatically defensive (translation: emotional) to the point I
don't know what I'm talking about? You _do_ realize that is the same
kind of argument right-wing conservatives make about black folks--that
we are too deluded/emotional/want-to-get-over to know the facts or
what's good for us...
I'm not saying that it's definitely the case, but you're definitely
inserting a racist element into it from YOUR end: The bad white people,
big bad Hollywood racism, hiding in the corners, how insidious it's
gotten proven by the fact that you don't see it anymore. Racism is a
canard now, and I think it's now racist to make such accusations. And
in Halle Berry's case, it's simply unfounded, since she started out in
the business right out of the starting gate. She should have done what
rapper's do: leave race out of it and just thank Jesus for how luck
she's been.
And right-wing conservatives use a different kind of argument. I'm very
familiar with political arguments, and THIS isn't one of them. I'm
going to state my case right here, and I'm going to let you know
out-front that I'm a liberal, but I have no GUILT about the conditions
in society, especially racism. When I heard Chris Rock say in his
stand-up routine that black people hate WHITE PEOPLE, and he made a joke
out of it, I was appalled. I tried to laugh it off myself, but as the
minutes passed, I couldn't get it off my mind, and I asked myself why I
continued watching. That little fuck-tard just made it humorous to HATE
white people. I got uncomfortable, then was aware of how uncomfortable
I was. Then said, FUCK HIM. I don't owe him this. If he wants an
entirely black audience, I'll help him out. And I changed the channel.
I'm just not going to listen to that crap anymore. And I don't think
YOU should.
Racism seems to be the default mode of primitive thinking. It led to
things like slavery. But what you and your people don't realize is,
YOUR racism isn't right either. The thing is, white people are taught
to do something about their racism, to examine it, and to weed it out in
themselves, on both practical and moral grounds; while YOU and your
people hold up to yourselves that YOUR racism is due to WHITE racism,
and you therefore has a justification. But not any more. Now, your
racism is just the good old fashioned kind, unfounded, unwarranted, and
its a product of your upbringing. It's time to tell you racist
comedians to put a sock in it, along with any other black entertainer,
representative, leader who insists on talking about race. A black
friend of my girlfriend lent her her the DVD "The Kings of Comedy."
That was such racist shit, I turned it off in about twenty minutes.
There was a white couple in the audience, and one of those stand-up guys
pointed them out and started making racial jokes. There wasn't a good
feeling in that show. It was ugly and hostile, and the only way you can
really understand what I mean is if you imagined the same situation in
race reversal, if it were a black couple in a vastly white crowd, with
some white honky comedian making racial jokes while pointing to them.
Black racism is simply not being addressed. And the black racism is now
keeping us from solving our real problems. You turn poverty into a RACE
issue instead of a much broader problem, something more systemic.
The thing is, I saw Halle Berry as a racist, playing a race card instead
showing she had talent. She looked to me as if she had no class, lacked
the imagination and sense of humor to make a real speech, and just took
the cheapest shot to make it memorable. She just didn't come off as
well as she thought, making her look overall not that smart. If there's
a next time, she should take Denzel's example, or Jamie Foxx's, and just
show some class. Halle simply looked ridiculous equating her award win
to part of a civil rights struggle, when this was really a totally
natural thing, no struggle involved. She looked like a dumb racist.
--
Alric Knebel
http://www.ironeyefortress.com/C-SPAN_loon.html
http://www.ironeyefortress.com